Höhlen (caves)
DIVERMag interview: Michael Menduno / Jarrod Jablonski: rebreathers
In this very interesting article JJ tells Michael Menduno who should use rebreathers in scuba diving and why.
I´m not DIR, but I know JJ and second his opinion concerning rebreathers!
Weiter unten, hinter dem Original-Artikel habe ich ihn übersetzt, denn das was Tante Google hier übersetzt ist leicht unverständlich…
Marketing Rebreathers
Articles, Business of Diving, Equipment, Interviews, Opinion, Technical Diving, Training | 2011/10/31 by Editor at Diver Magazine | 1 Comment
Jarrod Jablonski talks with Michael Menduno
GUE’s Jarrod Jablonski prepares to dive. Photo: Courtesy Jarrod Jablonski
In the current issue of DIVER Magazine (Volume 37 Number 1), I spoke with Jarrod Jablonski, the 42-year old explorer, educator and entrepreneur about his aquatic conservation membership organization, Global Underwater Explorers. GUE’sunique diver training program and operational standards have given rise to an enviable safety record and an impressive list of underwater discoveries by group members. Jablonski is the Chief Executive Officer of GUE and for gear manufacturer Halcyon Dive Systems and scuba retailer, Extreme Exposure Inc. He holds numerous records for the longest cave penetration, and the longest dives.
In this exclusive follow-up interview for divermag.com, I spoke more with Jablonski about the marketing of rebreathers to the technical and recreational diving communities.
I find it interesting that the GUE leadership and explorers are using the Halcyon RB80 semi-closed rebreather for exploration, but unlike most agencies, it seems like you are not actively promoting or marketing the rebreather or your training. In fact, looking at the GUE website or talking to people in the local organization here in Northern California you have to do some digging to realize that GUE even offers rebreather training, though you only offer it to individuals who are already very accomplished open-circuit technical divers.
I would say the pursuit of profit represents the primary motivator driving the promotion of rebreathers. Rebreather manufacturers and training agencies are looking to boost their revenues. This is somewhat understandable but I don’t feel like that’s our job at GUE. Our job is to safeguard the quality of education and the safety of the divers who entrust their lives to us as an organization. That’s really our only responsibility. That doesn’t mean I think rebreathers can’t be used safely. It just means that we take a really cautious approach to things that create greater risk; such risks must be balanced by meaningful benefit. Unfortunately the benefit is often lacking while using rebreathers for recreational purposes.
Jablonski’s company manufactures Halcyon rebreathers.
We talked about the concept of adding risk with little orno benefit—what you called “pointless risk”in the DIVERMagazine interview with regard to GUE’s ‘Doing It Right’ (DIR) standards. You said that’s the reason GUE doesn’t advocate the use of nitrox or air beyond 100 feet (30m), for example.
The logic is the same. If I’m average Joe Scuba Diver and most of my diving is in 50 feet (15m) of water and I go diving 10 times a year, what the hell do I need a rebreather for? I don’t and it’s just a huge expenditure that may significantly increase my risk. This is particularly true for someone who is barely active enough to remain proficient on general scuba gear. In my opinion, rebreathers are much more dangerous for that class of diver.
In fact, I believe that by and large the overwhelming numbers of people don’t really have any use for rebreathers. This is even true for many of my own dives. I own four rebreathers, but when I go down to Ginnie Springs to do an hour dive I rarely take my rebreather. Why? I don’t need it. It’s of no value to me on that dive. So that creates a really interesting psychological question. What is the efficacy of using something that doesn’t really add value but does add additional risk?
At the OZTek conference in May, Dr. Andrew Fock, head of hyperbaric medicine at the Alfred Hospital in Melbourne, Australia, said that his best estimate, from all existing data, is that rebreathers are 10 times as risky as open circuit scuba in terms of fatalities. In other words you are 10 times more likely to die on a rebreather than on open circuit scuba.
Yeah, and so think about that and how you would feel if your best friend or your wife was killed in 33 feet (10m) of water using a rebreather. You’d have to ask yourself, “why?” What happened? Does this make sense?
Why does a guy with tremendous experience like Wes Skiles (a veteran cave diver, filmmaker and photographer who died during a National Geographic film project in 2010 while diving a rebreather) die in 60 feet(18m) of water? Okay, fair enough it may not have been a rebreather failure, per se. But the fact a very experienced individual gets killed during a trivial dive in a way that would not happen while using open circuit, forces us to ask ourselves, does this make any sense? And unfortunately, Wes isn’t the only one.
PADI is now marketing rebreathers to recreational divers. As you know, they hosted a meeting at the annual Diving Equipment & Marketing Association (DEMA) show last year for all the rebreather manufacturers to spec out their requirements for a ‘recreational’ rebreather, the so-called Type R machines, as opposed to units suitable for tech divers, (Type T machines). They are in the process of rolling out their training program for recreational divers. To qualify, divers must have logged 25 dives with 10 of them on nitrox. They also launched rebreather courses for tech divers.
The situation seems very different than when PADI entered the tech diving market because back then, in 2000, there was a burgeoning market. Currently, there isn’t a market for recreational rebreathers; PADI is hoping to create one.
My guess is that PADI is watching its revenues decline, with fewer certifications and continuing drop out rate, and they’re trying to figure out how to pay for their infrastructure. So they are asking the question, what’s the best growth segment and everybody is telling them its rebreathers.
But there’s really not a recreational market? All right, let’s create one. We’ve got enough strength to do it.
So with PADI’s marketing muscle, manufacturers are going to create Type R-machines—there is already at least one on the market—and PADI centers and instructors will be there to train recreational divers in their use. Other agencies like the International Association of Nitrox & Technical Divers (IANTD) also offer recreational rebreather courses.
But basically PADI is creating this market, developing thousands of students who will be learning on a unit that has very little operational time. That’s problematic in my opinion. I appreciate the fiscal urgencies more than most but that doesn’t justify this sort of risk. What’s more is that they are targeting the bottom of the market. I mean these are the divers that we see putting their regulator on backwards. That’s the market they’re going after. That’s who they think is the customer. I strongly disagree with this strategy and I think it’s going to have negative consequences for the industry.
Because they risk leading the innocent to bad outcomes?
I have always been a champion of people’s individual rights, even when I think what they are doing is damn fool stupid. But, I strongly believe you have a responsibility to limit the exposure of people who don’t know better. And that applies to organizations as well as individuals. It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.
So you advocate caution?
Yes. I think we, as an industry, have to take a hard look at ourselves and say, “Really? That’s what this has come to? We’re going to push this technology on a group of people who are wholly unprepared to manage a rebreather, and we’re going to promote it because we can make money doing it.” You know, that really bothers me and I think it’s unethical.
Now I’m hardly against the free market. I run a for-profit manufacturing business and a retail dive store. I believe in making a profit. And I have every reason to promote rebreathers. My company sells a rebreather. But in this case, I see interesting parallels between our recent financial crisis that resulted from pushing mortgage-backed securities and the peddling of recreational rebreathers. Selling something people can’t afford (from a financial or personal risk point of view) or don’t really understand results in nice short term benefit but creates long term unsustainable risks that contaminate the entire industry.
People could end up dying instead of just losing their 401Ks.
Sadly, yes. The issue is one of appropriateness. There’s a low end of the market and the high end, which we clearly embrace. But I take a strong stance against supplying the casual diver with rebreathers.
I am not motivated to discourage capable and experienced divers from making their own decisions. These people have reached a level of experience, knowledge and capacity where they do, or should, know the risks they’re subjecting themselves to.
So where do you draw the line?
The hardest part for us as an organization is to figure out where that middle is, and that’s really what we’re doing. And we’re moving slowly because of rule number one. GUE’s job is to support the safety of the individual, notboost industry economics. Another reason that it has taken us some time, frankly, is that the rebreather industry is still relatively new. It’s taken more than a decade for rebreathers to start shaping up and I would say the top few rebreather companies are now legitimate, solvent, capable organizations. But even these companies are small and don’t sell more than a few hundred units a year.
So it’s not important to us that everyone is racing into rebreathers. What’s important is to carefully and slowly and methodically evaluate where that middle should be. I like to start at the top and work my way down because I think it’s safer to start with explorers and work our way from there.
So what specifically are your doing as an organization?
I have brought up the issue of rebreathers at our bi-annual training council meeting in each of the last three or four years. I have taken the pulse of the council, asked everybody what they’re seeing, what they’re hearing, what they feel, what requests they’re getting and we have discussed the issue. I also authorized the training council to start diving closed circuit rebreathers (CCRs). In fact, I have encouraged it. I said, look we’re trying to make decisions about the organization and what we need to do. So our job is to develop an internal experience base and use it to determine how far down the line we want to go. So we’ve all been doing that.
When you say CCR, you mean closed circuit rebreathers instead of the semi-closed rebreather that GUE explorers have been using?
Correct. All of our top people have already been using the Halcyon semi-closed system. But realistically semi-closed as it exists now isn’t really an appropriate tool for recreational diving because of the inherent oxygen drop in the system. Only a very experienced technical person should use it in shallower water. I wouldn’t put anyone who’s really recreationally inclined in 30 feet (9m) on a semi-closed rebreather. It just doesn’t make sense.
Briefly explain what you mean by oxygen drop?
Yes. A semi-closed system vents gas from the breathing loop. So for example with our unit, we have a ten-to-one ratio, so roughly 10 percent of that gas in blown off every breathing cycle and fresh gas is added. So the diver rebreathes some of the gas in the loop, and as a result, there is an oxygen drop from what’s in your gas supply to what the diver actually breathes from the loop and the amount of that drop is greater, the shallower you are. This decline occurs over time and relates to breathing rate, gas vented from the loop and depth, but as a rough example you might see a 10 point or greater oxygen drop in shallow water. So if you’re using 30 percent oxygen, it’s 20 percent oxygen at my mouth. But by the time I get to 300 feet (91m) it’s only a couple of percentage points. For deep diving it’s more or less irrelevant, but for shallow diving it’s pretty important.
Closed circuit units, which add oxygen directly to the loop, are more dangerous in some ways because they are more complicated, but they’re generally less dangerous in shallow water because they don’t have that particular oxygen problem. So CCRs are a more viable contender for shallow water diving.

So, as individuals you’re exploring closed circuit diving to inform your decisions as an organization?
That’s right. They’re taking classes, making dives, diving with others and gaining experience on different units. So our goal as an organization is to figure out, ultimately, if we want to condone rebreathers, how far down the chain are we going to condone them?
Currently we allow only those divers who have completed our Tech 2 course, which is a pretty high level of proficiency, to dive the Halcyon rebreather. We’re considering lowering that but we’re doing it through careful and progressive experience and trials and trying to decide if we want to move in this direction, and if so, then exactly how we might do it.
So for us, I think that you will see GUE very slowly migrate from providing rebreathers to individuals with a ‘very high’ level of expertise, to individuals with a ‘pretty high’ level of expertise. But it’s unlikely you’ll ever see us go any lower.
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Deutsche Übersetzung
Es handelt sich um ein Interview, dass Michael Meduno ( die alten Säcke unter Euch erinnern sich sich an aquacorps, das erste techdive magazin, das von ihm gegründet wurde) für das DIVER MAGAZINE, Ausgabe 37 mit Jarrod Jablonski über den sinnvollen Einsatz von Rebreathern führte, bzw. deren Einsatz im „Sporttauchbereich“
MM Ich finde es interessant, dass die Spitzenleute und Explorer unter den GUE Tauchern den Halcion scr RB80 bei Explorationen benutzen, diesen aber anders als andere Organisationen nicht in Ihrem Trainingsprogramm aktiv vermarkten oder propagieren.
Tatsächlich, wenn man die GUE website anschaut, oder mit Leuten hier in der Organisation in Kalifornien spricht, muss man sich anstrengen, um zu realisieren, dass GUE sogar Rebreather-Training anbietet, allerdings nur Technischen Tauchern, die schon sehr erfahren im Bereich Open Circuit sind.
JJ Ich würde sagen, Profitgier ist der primäre Motivator den Einsatz von Rebreather zu fördern.
Hersteller von R. und Trainingsorganisationen versuchen damit ihre Profite zu steigern.
Das ist irgendwie verständlich, aber ich denke, das ist nicht unsere Aufgabe bei GUE! Unsere Aufgabe ist es die Qualität von Ausbildung sicherzustellen und die Sicherheit der Taucher, die uns als Organisation ihr Leben anvertrauen. Das ist wahrhaft unsere Verantwortung. Es bedeutet nicht, dass ich denke, dass R. nicht sicher benutzt werden können, es bedeutet nur, dass wir einen sehr vorsichtigen Ansatz hinsichtlich von Dingen, die ein größeres Risiko beinhalten, bevorzugen. Beim Einsatz solcher Geräte müssen die Vor- und Nachteile sehr sorgfältig abgewogen werden. Unglücklicherweise ergibt sich oft kein Vorteil, wenn R. im Sporttauchbereich eingesetzt werden.
MM Wir sprechen also über das Konzept das Risiko zu erhöhen, ohne (oder nur sehr geringe) Vorteile daraus zu ziehen, etwas, dass Du im DIVERMagazin unnützes Risiko im Hinblick auf die GUE/DIR-Standarts genannt hast. Du sagtest, das ist der Grund warum GUE nicht den Gebrauch von Nitrox oder Luft im Bereich jenseits der 30m befürwortet.
JJ Der Sinn ist derselbe. Wenn ich der Otto-Normal-Taucher bin, die meisten meiner Tauchgänge im 15m Bereich liegen und ich 10 TG im Jahr mache, wofür zum Teufel brauch ich dann einen R.? Gar nicht, es ist nur eine teure Anschaffung, die mein Risiko erhöht. Dies jilt besonders für jemanden, der keum genug taucht, um mit einer normalen Tauchausrüstung sicher umgehen zu können. Meiner Meinung nach sind R. für diese Art von Tauchern gefährlich.
Ich sehe es tatsächlich so, dass die absolut überwiegende Anzahl von Taucher R. gar nicht benötigt.
Das gilt im Übrigen auch für viele meiner Tauchgänge. Ich besitze 4 R., aber wenn ich nach Ginnie Springs fahre, um dort eine Stunde zu tauchen, werde ich wohl kaum meinen R. mitnehmen. Warum? Weil ich ihn nicht brauche! Er hat keinen Wert für mich bei diesen Tauchgang. Dies erzeugt eine wirklich interessante psychologische Frage: Worin liegt der Nutzen etwas ohne Wert zu gebrauchen, welches das Risiko erhöht?
MM Bei der OZTek Konferenz im Mai sagte Dr. Andrew Fock, Chef der hyperbaren medizinischen Abteilung des Alfred Krankenhauses in Melbourne, dass seine Einschätzung auf Basis aller vorliegenden Daten die sei, dass das Risiko, bezogen auf tödlich verlaufende Tauchunfälle, beim Gebrauch eines Rebreathers etwa zehnmal höher sei als das von OC. Mit anderen Worten: Wenn man mit einem Rebreather taucht hat man eine zehnfach höhere Wahrscheinlichkeit den Tauchgang nicht zu überleben.
JJ Genau, denk darüber nach und frag Dich, was Du fühlen würdest, wenn Dein bester Freund oder Deine Ehefrau bei einem 10m Tauchgang umkommen würde. Du müsstest Dich fragen: Warum? Was ist passiert, macht das einen Sinn?
Warum stirbt ein überaus erfahrener Typ wie Wes Skiles in 18m Wassertiefe? OK, höchstwahrscheinlich wird es eigentlich kein Rebreather-Problem gewesen sein, aber die Tatsache, dass ein sehr erfahrener Taucher (und leider ist Wes nicht der Einzige) während eines trivialen Tauchgangs ums Leben kommt, zwingt uns zu die Frage zu stellen: Macht das einen Sinn?
MM PADI ist dabei Rebreather für den Sporttauchbereich zu bewerben. Wie Du weißt, hielten sie letztes Jahr auf der DEMA ein Treffen für alle Rebreather-Hersteller ab, um zu spezifizieren, wie ein Sport-Tauch-Rebreather auszusehen hat, die sogenannte Typ-R-Maschine, als Gegenstück zu den Typ-T-Maschinen für Tech-Taucher.
Sie sind dabei, ein Trainings-Programm für Sporttaucher aufzulegen. Um sich zu qualifizieren muss der Taucher 25 TG, 10 davon mit Nitrox gelogt haben. Ausserdem bieten sie einen Rebreather-Kurs für Tech-Taucher an.
Die Situation erscheint ganz unterschiedlich zu der im Jahr 2000, als PADI den Tech-Markt betrat, denn damals war es ein aufkeimender Markt. Zur Zeit gibt es keinen Markt für Sport-Tauch-Rebreather, PADI hofft einen zu kreieren.
JJ Meine Einschätzung ist die, dass PADI merkt wie seine Umsätze schwinden, mit weniger neuen Brevets und steigenden Austrittszahlen und sie versuchen herauszubekommen wie sie ihre Infrastruktur weiter bezahlen können.
Dementsprechend fragen sie nach dem Segment mit den größten Zuwachsraten und jeder erzählt ihnen es ist der Rebreather.
Nunja, wenn da kein Markt ist für Sporttaucher, dann laß uns einenschaffen, wir sind groß genug es zu tun!
MM Also gehen die Hersteller, mit von PADI gestärktem Rücken hin und stellen einen Typ_R Rebreather her. Es gibt zumindest schon einen und PAI Center und Ausbilder sind da, um die Sporttaucher in der Handhabung zu unterrichten. Andere Organisationen wie IANTD bieten ebenfalls einen Sportauch-Rebreather-Kurs an.
JJ Aber grundsätzlich ist PADI dabei, diesen Markt zu schaffen und wird tausende von Tauchschülern mit dem Umgang einer Maschine vertraut machen, die nur sehr geringe Tauchzeiten erlaubt. Das ist meiner Meinung nach problematisch. Ich schätze die geschäftemacherischen Notwendigkeiten mehr als die meisten, aber sie rechtfertigen nicht diese Art von Risiko. Ausserdem zielen sie auf die Basis des Marktes, ich rede von den Tauchern, die versuchen den Regulator rückwärts in den Mund zu stecken… Das ist der Markt, auf den sie aus sind. Das ist ihre Zielgruppe von Tauchern. Ich lehne diese Art von Strategie strikt ab und denke, dass sie negative Einflüsse auf die ganze Tauchindustrie haben wird.
MM Weil sie es riskieren Unschuldige ins Verderben zu führen?
JJ Ich war immer ein Vertreter der Rechte des Einzelnen, sogar wenn ich dachte sie tun etwas verdammt Verrücktes. Aber ich glaube ganz fest daran, dass wir die Verantwortung haben, Leute, die es nicht besser wissen davor zu schützen. Und das gilt sowohl für Organisationen als auch einzelne Personen. Es ist die eine Sache etwas selbst zu tun, aber eine andere, es auch zu bewerben, denn dadurch übernimmt man Verantwortung und ich glaube, dass ist eine viel größere Verantwortung.
MM Also propagierst Du Vorsicht?
JJ Ja, ich denke wir als Organisationen und Hersteller müssen uns selbstkritisch hinterfragen und sagen: Also hier hat das alles hingeführt. Wir sind dabei diese Technologie an Leute zu bringen, die völlig überfordert sind einen Rebreather zu handhaben und wir bewerben es weil wir Geld damit machen können. Das ist es was mich beunruhigt, ich denke es ist unethisch!
Natürlich bin ich nicht gegen die freie Marktwirtschaft, ich betreibe ein Wirtschaftsunternehmen und einen Tauchladen, ich bin dafür, dass man Profit machen kann und ich hätte jeden Grund Rebreather zu bewerben, da mein Unternehmen Rebreather verkauft. Aber in diesem Fall sehe ich interessante Parallelen zwischen den vergangenen Wirtschaftskrisen, die daraus resultierten, gewinnorientierte Unternehmen zu pushen, die durch Hypotheken finanziert waren und dem Hausieren gehen mit Rebreathern.
Leuten etwas zu verkaufen, das sie sich nicht leisten können (entweder aus kostentechnischen oder sicherheitstechnischen Gründen) oder nicht verstehen, führt zu einem kurzfristigen Erfolg, kreiert aber auf lange Sicht ein unüberschaubares Risiko die ganze Branche zu vergiften.
MM Die Leute könnten also darin enden nicht nur ihr Geld, sondern auch ihr Leben zu verlieren
JJ Leider ja, das Problem ist eines der Verhältnismäßigkeit. (Hier wurde ein Satz ausgelassen, den ich nicht übersetzen konnte) Aber ich nehme eine strikte Haltung gegenüber der Ausrüstung von normalen Tauchern mit Rebreathern.
Ich habe keinen Grund erfahrene und fähige Taucher davon abzuhalten, ihre eigenen Entscheidungen zu treffen. Diese Leute haben einen Erfahrungslevel erreicht, Erfahrung und Fähigkeiten, mit denen sie in der Lage sind, oder sein sollten, die Risiken selbst richtig einzuschätzen.
MM Also wo ziehst Du die Linie?
JJ Also der schwierigste Teil für uns als Organisation liegt darin herauszufinden, wo diese Grenze ist und das ist genau das, was wir machen. Und wir bewegen uns ganz langsam wegen Gesetz Nr.1: Die Aufgabe von GUE ist es die Sicherheit des Einzelnen zu unterstützen, nicht die Wirtschaft in Schwung zu bringen.
Ein anderer Grund wieso es länger gedauert hat ist der, das die Rebreather-Industrie noch relativ jung ist. Es hat mehr als ein Jahrzehnt gedauert um die Rebreather zu entwickeln und ich wüde sagen die Top-Herstellersind jetzt legitme, solvente, fähige Organisationen, aber selbst diese Gesellschaften sind klein und verkaufen nicht mehr als ein paar hundert Einheiten im Jahr.
Also ist es für uns nicht wichtig, dass sich nun jeder auf Rebreather stürzt. Es ist wichtiger für uns herauszubekommen wo diese Grenze gezogen werden kann. Ich möchte an der Spitze beginnen und mich dann langsam nach unten weiter vorarbeiten, denn ich denke es ist sicherer mit den Explorern zu beginnen.
MM Also was speziell macht Ihr als Organisation?
JJ Ich habe das Problem mit den Rebreathern in unseren halbjährlichen Treffen der letzten drei oder vier Jahre vorgebracht. Ich habe am Puls des Rates gehorscht, jeden gefragt wie er das sieht, was er gehört hat, was er fühlt und welche Fragen an ihn herangetragen werden und wir haben das Problem diskutiert. Ich habe ausserdem den Trainingsbeirat autorisiert mit CCRs zu tauchen, tatsächlich habe ich dies sogar unterstützt. Ich sagte: Seht, wir versuchen Lösungen zu finden für die Organisation und was wir tun müssen. Also ist es unsere Aufgabe eine internationale Grundlage zu schaffen und diese dazu zu benutzen, zu bestimmen, wie weit runter wir mit der Grenze gehen wollen. Das ist es, was wir alle machen.
MM Wenn Du sagst CCR, dann redest Du von geschlossenen Systemen anstelle der halbgeschlossenen Rebreather, die die GUE-Explorer benutzen?
JJ Korrekt, alle unserer Top-Leute haben schon den Halcyon halbgeschlossenen Rebreather benutzt, aber realistisch betrachtet ist der scr in seiner jetzigen form nicht als System fürs Sporttauchen geeignet, wegen dem systembedingten Sauerstoffabfall. Nur eine sehr erfahrene Person sollte ihn im Flachwasser benutzen. Ich würde nie jemand, der in sporttaucherischer Hinsicht im 10m-Bereich taucht mit einem scr losschicken, das macht einfach keinen Sinn!
MM Erkläre bitte kurzwas Du mit Sauerstoffabfall meinst!
JJ Nun ja, ein halbgeschlossnes System gibt Gas aus dem Atemkreislauf ab. Eine Einheit zum Beispiel mit einem 10:1 Verhältnis gibt ungefähr 10% von dem Gas bei jedem Atemzug an die Umgebung ab und führt frisches Gas zu. Also atmet der Taucher Gas aus dem Kreislauf mit dem Ergebnis, dass es einen Sauerstoffabfall gibt von dem, was dem System zugeführt wird in Verhältnis zu dem, was der Taucher atmet und dieser Abfall ist umso größer, je flacher man ist. Dieser Abfall entsteht mit der Zeit und hängt ab vom Atemminutenvolumen, dem abströmenden Gas aus dem Kreislauf und der Tiefe. Wenn man also 30% Sauerstoff benutzt, dann sind 20% an meinem Mund.
In dem Moment, wo ich auf 90m bin ist es nur ein Bruchteil von Prozenten und mehr oder weniger irrelevant, aber bei flachen Tauchgängen ist es entscheidend.
Geschlossene Systeme, die Sauerstoff direkt in den Kreislauf zuführen, sind in einiger hinsicht gefährlicher, da sie komplizierter sind, aber im Allgemeinen weniger gefährlich in flachem Wasser, denn sie haben nicht dieses spezielle Sauerstoffproblem. Dementsprechend sind CCRs im Flachwasser zu bevorzugen.
MM Also untersucht ihr als Einzelne das CCR-Tauchen als Basis für die Entscheidungen Eurer Organisation.
JJ Das ist richtig. Sie nehmen Unterricht, tauchen mit andern und gewinnen Erfahrung auf verschiedenen Einheiten. So ist unser Ziel als Organisation herauszufinden, ob wir Rebreather bevorzugen wollen du wie weit wir die Grenze derer die sie benutzen können absenken können.
Momentan erlauben wir nur den Tauchern, die den Tech 2 Kurs absolviert haben, der ein ziemlich hohes Maß an Können voraussetzt, den Halcyon-Rebreather zu tauchen. Wir denken darüber nach, die Grenze herabzusetzen, aber wir werden im Rahmen unserer Erfahrungen sorgfältig abwägen, ob wir weiter in diese Richtung gehen wollen und wenn ja, dannwie genau wir das tun werden.
Also für uns denke ich, dass sich GUE sehr langsam in Richtung Rebreather für Individuen mit einem sehr hohen Erfahrungslevel zu solchen mit einem ziemlich hohen Erfahrungslevel bewegen wird, aber es ist sehr unwahrscheinlich, dass wir das Einstiegsniveau noch weiter absenken.
Kann sein, dass sich noch der ein oder andere Rechtschreibfehler eingeschlichen hat, aber es war schon recht spät letzte Nacht…
Hier noch ein Artikel aus dem magazine der NSS-CDS über das gleiche Thema
The Loop
By Joe Citelli
It is apparent that “CCR Cave” (Closed Circuit Rebreather
cave diving) is the latest trend in cave diving.
Courses are being taught, books are being written, and
students are being recruited to use a highly advanced
technology for which many do not have the back ground
or experience. This also holds true for some who teach
and or write about it. The veracity of these statements
becomes quite apparent when one observes the skills,
planning logic and actions of some newer divers.
So how does a cave diver decide whether CCR cave
diving is for him or her? There are numerous factors to
consider. First and foremost is to realistically evaluate
ones’ personal abilities both in the water and in a cave.
Where is your comfort zone? Has your cave diving ability
evolved to the point that safe and proper navigation
and maneuvering within a cave system comes naturally
to you? Or are you still at a level which requires you to
intensely focus solely on the cave? If placing a jump
reel without making a huge silt cloud is a challenge, or
if you have an ever increasing feeling of doom as you
go deeper into a system perhaps CCR cave diving is an
unwise choice for you.
Help or Hindrance
Let’s assume you are an experienced cave diver who
is as comfortable 5000 feet back in a cave as you are
in a swimming pool. Minimally, this is where you need
to be at before considering CCR cave diving. At this
level of experience you are ready to make the leap, but,
is it a practical choice for you? Only after examining
your personal style of diving and preferences can this
decision be made rationally. Rebreathers are not the
panacea they are often presented as and yet they can
be wonderful tools when used for the right job. While
they are less than optimal in shallow systems like Peacock
Springs with its continuous depth changes wreaking
havoc with buoyancy and ppO2, they are a godsend
in systems like Eagle’s Nest where depths are in the
300 ffw range and CCR makes running out of gas a non
issue. So, one must ask, will his or her style of diving be
enhanced by adding a CCR to the toolbox?
Consider the following:
Are deep, and/or remote caves a part of your usual diving?
Can you perform the dives you wish to do effectively
on open circuit? Are you confident in your ability
to solve technical problems underwater while under
duress?
If the answer to any of these is no, then CCR cave diving
is not for you. Shallow (less than 100 foot), short
(less than one hour) dives can be done very safely and
effectively on open circuit scuba. CCR adds unnecessary
complications and brings far more risk to the table
than it mitigates. If you are incapable of performing a
given dive on open circuit, you should not delude yourself
that CCR is the solution. Remember, the safety net
or bailout for CCR is open circuit. If you can’t bail out
to open circuit from maximum depth or penetration with
confidence and know you can do that 5000 foot open
circuit swim out of the cave, CCR cave diving is not the
solution. If you are of the mindset that 30 seconds is
not a lot of time to solve a problem or, if you question
your ability to assess and solve technical problems at
depth, full well knowing a mistake can and will kill you,
CCR cave diving is not for you. If you are careless,
overly confident or have the “it can’t happen to me attitude”,
CCR cave diving is not for you.
So, for whom is CCR cave diving appropriate? In my
opinion, anyone whose diving has evolved to the limits
of open circuit and is pushing those limits often, as in
most of their dives are very deep or very long (or both).
CCR should also be considered when traveling to remote
places where logistics are such that equipment
Cave Diving and CCR’s:
A Match Made in Heaven or A One Way Ticket to Hell
Agnes Milowka: In Too Deep
Dies ist Bericht des australischen Fernsehens über Ag.
Short documentation of the Australian TV about Ag.
http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8254266
Bahamas Blue Canyons Expedition 2011
Unten findet Ihr den link zu einem kurzen Video von Jill Heinerth, von ihrer Expedition nach Acklins, die ein Teil der Bahamas sind.
Expeditionsleiter war Mark Laucien, die andern Mitglieder Brian Kakuk and Ian Burry. Auf diesem Trip entdeckten sie zwölf neue Höhlen und legten fast drei Kilometer neue Leine!
This was an expedition led by Mark Laucien to the Acklins, which are part of the Bahamas.
The other members of the team were Jill Heinerth who took this great video, Brian Kakuk and Ian Burry. They found 12 virgin caves and laid 8000ft of line!
Brian will give a detailed report this weekend at the NSS-CDS conference this weekend in Marianna.
Man I wish I could be there…
Watch the video by clicking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LxNMvaWz3VI#at=330
Agnes Milowka +26.02.2011
Schreckliche Neuigkeiten aus Australien, Agnes Milowka ist letzten Samstag von einem Tauchgang in Tank Cave nicht mehr zurück gekommen.
Ihr Körper wurde gestern ca. 600m entfernt vom Eingang lokalisiert und ihre Freunde werden versuchen sie heute am Montag in Zusammenarbeit mit der örtlichen Polizei zu bergen.
Alles Gute Ag, ich hoffe Du kannst jetzt mit Deinem Freund Wes die Höhlen im Jenseits betauchen.
Terrible news from Australia. Agnes Milowka disappeared in Tank Cave last Saturday.
Her body was located 600m from the entrance yesterday and her fellow cave divers will try to get her out today.
Goodspeed Ag, I really hope you´re diving the caves in heaven together with your bro Wes
Divers search for body in underwater cave
Updated Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:27pm AEDT
A 29-year-old female diver is presumed dead after she went missing in Tank Cave, near Mount Gambier in South Australia’s south-east.
Fellow divers reported the Victorian woman missing earlier this afternoon.
Superintendent Trevor Twilley from the Limestone Coast Police says trained divers have joined the search for the missing diver.
“Apparently you have to have special qualifications and a ticket to be able to dive in that cave because of the complexities and nature of the cave itself,” he said.
“Our water operations divers don’t have those qualifications so we’re working very closely with the Cave Diving Association of Australia to see what kind of assistance they can provide us.”
Rob Dycer owns the 270-acre property and leases the underwater cave to the Cave Divers Association.
“They go in there every second week roughly, so roughly about 26 times a year,” he said.
“These people are the uttermost professionals. They are very, very good at their job.”
Tags: disasters-and-accidents, emergency-incidents, australia, sa, mount-gambier-5290
First posted Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:52pm AEDT
Cave diver Agnes Milowka dies in South-East
- Ken McGregor Doug Robertson
- From: AAP
- February 28, 2011 2:51PM

It could be days before the body of Agnes Milowka, pictured in photos from her website, is recovered from an underwater cave near Mt Gambier. Source: Supplied

Cave diver Agnes Milowka explores underwater terrain in the Bahamas. Pic: Wesley C. Skiles Source: AdelaideNow

Agnes Milowka at the site of a cave dive. Pic: Agnes Milowka Source: AdelaideNow

Divers and emergency services workers gather at Tank Cave. Picture: Lechelle Earl Source: The Advertiser

Free Spirit
Internationally-renowned cave diver Agnes Milowka made this video before she drowned yesterday near Mt Gambier.
Adelaide Now28 February 2011
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A MELBOURNE cave diver who died yesterday was a passionate expert who “couldn’t wait to get underground”.
Polish born Agnes Milowka, 29, was a “world renowned” diver who had explored caves from Tasmania to the Bahamas.
In Sanctum, which is now showing at cinemas across Australia, Ms Milowka was a stunt diver for the two female characters in the movie.
In a horrific twist of irony, the movie centres around a group of cave divers who are pushed to the limit when an expedition goes tragically wrong.
Ms Milowka graduated from Flinders University with a diploma in Maritime Archaeology in 2007, but has since spent time diving in Florida and was based in Melbourne.
During her short but distinguished career she worked for both National Geographic and the Discovery Channel.
Recommended
- Diver ‘couldn’t wait to get underground’ Adelaide Now, 31 minutes ago
- Dead cave diver’s body located Courier Mail, 5 hours ago
- Deep mystery lures the bold Adelaide Now, 5 hours ago
- Cold, lonely and loving it Herald Sun, 6 hours ago
- Divers to recover woman’s body from cave Courier Mail, 12 hours ago
Ms Milowka’s body was found in Tank Cave, a seven-kilometre cave near Mt Gambier in South Australia’s southeast.
She was one of a group of Victorian divers visiting for the weekend.
SA Police Water Operation Divers are assisting the retrieval operation but the police divers did not have sufficient cave diving experience to recover the body, Superintendent Trevor Twilley said.
“It’s an extremely dangerous job and that’s why we have to tread with caution and make sure we don’t put the cave divers (rescuers) at risk,” he said.
“It’s one thing to be able to get to (Ms Milowka) but the divers have to be able to get back safely with the body.
“The (divers) are all volunteers and they’re very upset because they’re a close-knit community. At the moment we’re working on getting counselling for them.”
Supt Twilley said it was too early to comment on what went wrong on the dive in a cave Ms Milowka had experienced many times previously.
“At this stage it’s too early to tell and we probably won’t know until we recover the diver and also the equipment then that will be analysed,” he said.
“This dive (to video the route to the body) will take about three hours (but) the whole operation could take three days.”
On her website, Ms Milowka says she was well aware of the risks she faces everytime she submerged into the dark subterranean world of cave diving.
“It would be difficult to claim that caves are completely safe” she says.
“Going into caves in general carries a certain amount of risk, and then if you add water and submerge the cave then obviously the risks increase.”
Tank Cave has been described by dive experts as “the best cave in the southern hemisphere”.
It is on private property on the Princes Highway, halfway between Millicent and Mt Gambier, near Tantanoola, and is renowned for being a “complicated underground cavern”, according to local diving information.
Ms Milowka’s body was about 500m from the cave entrance.
It is the second cave diving death in the South-East in the past year. Melbourne doctor Robert McAlister, 51, died while diving in a sinkhole near Mt Schank on March 13, 2010.
His co-diver was gradually surfacing to avoid the bends when he saw Dr McAlister, an experienced diver, at a great depth below him, authorities said.
The co-diver did not have enough air to return to Dr McAlister. He came to the surface and raised the alarm, but when water operations police found Dr McAlister he was dead and was tangled in the cave’s guide ropes.
Police divers have begun the grim task of recovering the body of a Melbourne woman who died in an accident in Australia’s longest underwater cave system yesterday.
Agnes Milowka had dived many times previously in Tank Cave near Mount Gambier in South Australia, exploring and mapping its unknown passages.
The 29-year-old was well-known in diving circles both in Australia and around the world, and had worked as a stunt diver on James Cameron’s 3D diving film Sanctum.
Agnes Milowka, as she appeared in a video she posted on Youtube.On Friday, she tweeted of her excitement about her impending diving trip to South Australia.
“Another w-end of cave diving in Mt Gambier … fabulous! Can’t wait to get underground,” she wrote.
Police are still trying to piece together what went wrong in Tank Cave, a maze-like system with more than seven kilometres of underwater passages.
At some time during yesterday’s dive, with a group from Victoria, she was believed to have left her buddy, and never returned.
Her fellow divers reported her missing at 1.45pm, with one able to identify an area within the cave system where Ms Milowka was last seen.
Her body was found overnight about 600 metres inside the cave system.
Officers have now sealed off the sinkhole and are devising a plan to retrieve the body.
In an article published on her website in November, Ms Milowka wrote of her experiences in Tank Cave, describing it as “a spiderweb gone wild” and “unlike any other in the Mt Gambier region, it is a real gem and it is a joy to dive”.
“The cave is stunning, it is relatively shallow (a max depth around 20m), there is no flow to fight and the water is crystal clear – you can’t go wrong really,” she wrote.
She also wrote of a new passage in Tank Cave she had discovered with a colleague, and described numerous “tight bits” where some divers may have had to take off their tanks to squeeze through.
“The walls and roof to begin with are quite soft and squishy, which means that large chunks of the roof rain down on you as you exhale and the visibility is quickly reduced to zero,” she wrote.
“This is not only a hazard when coming back out through the small restrictions but it also means that this section of the cave is particularly fragile and needs to be handled with a bit of tender love and care.”
She also said she would continue to explore the unmapped tunnels and passages in Tank Cave, which was “top of my list when heading over to Mt Gambier”.
Ms Milowka is believed to have attended Caulfield Grammar School in Melbourne, before completing a Graduate Diploma in Maritime Archaeology at Flinders University.
Her website says she holds the current female penetration record for diving in Australia, and had dived extensively in Florida in the US.
Last year she was part of a National Geographic Team on a project to the Blue Holes of the Bahamas and worked as a stunt diver on the 3D cave diving feature film Sanctum.
Superintendent Trevor Twilley from the Limestone Coast police says police won’t know what went wrong in Tank Cave until they recover and test Ms Milowka’s equipment and diving umbilical cords.
He said cave divers are helping police plan the recovery today because of the complexities of the almost eight-kilometre stretch of twisting underwater passages.
Police divers will join members of the tight-knit Cave Divers Association of Australia today to assess how to retrieve Ms Milowka’s body.
The planned dive is expected to take up to three hours, before the situation will be reassessed.
Superintendent Twilley said the association’s members, despite mourning the loss of their colleague, would help guide police through the complex, narrow system.
“That is something we have certainly discussed at length this morning – the emotional side of asking them to do that and particularly when they do reach the deceased what impact that may have on their emotions and what risk that may add to their safety,” he told ABC radio in Adelaide.
The cave is located on private property on the Princes Highway near Tantanoola, with access to the cave controlled by the Cave Divers Association of Australia.
The woman is the second Victorian to die in cave diving accidents in south-east South Australia in the past year.
In March last year, Melbourne doctor Robert McAlister died in a sinkhole at Mount Schank near Mount Gambier.
The 51-year-old was diving with a friend when he is believed to have become tangled in a rope. His friend tried to free him as both ran low on air, however he was unable to be saved.
The Cave Divers Association of Australia has been contacted for comment.
Speaking to the Knox Weekly newspaper four days before her disappearance, Ms Milowka spoke of her passion for exploring.
“In this day and age when you think that everything has been found and you don’t even have to get off your chair to see the world, it’s amazing to think there are still places human eyes have never seen before,” she said.
“It’s a phenomal feeling – the rush, the thrill of exploration, it totally hooked me.”
Reflecting on the dangers of cave diving, she said she had experienced many close calls.
“Everything that could posibly go wrong for me has.
“I’ve been stuck in stupid places trying to push the envelope a bit, but when that happens you have three choices. You can panic and die, give up and die, or control your thoughts, feelings and emotions and give yourself the best chance of coming out alive.”
She also spoke of her work on Sanctum, released this year.
“It sounds glamorous but it was very hard work,” she said.
“We worked very hard. There were 12-hour days, night shifts and it was quite challenging – but I loved it.
“Seeing the process of making a movie and watching the end product was just a fantastic experience.
“Because the movie was so full-on, I thought my grandparents may panic a bit. After they saw it, they said they were scared to death for me, but proud.”
Diver’s body recovered from caves
Updated 8 hours 34 minutes ago
The body of a world-renowned cave diver has been recovered from the underwater channels where she had been trapped since Sunday.
Agnes Milowka, 29, ran out of air after becoming separated from her diving buddy in the eight kilometre-long channel system of Tank Cave near Mount Gambier in South Australia’s south-east.
Tank Cave is one of Australia’s longest underwater caves.
Divers had been working to shift rocks to clear a path so they could recover Ms Milowka’s body.
Superintendent Trevor Twilley says the diver’s friends, who were involved in the retrieval process, had an extremely difficult task.
“It has been an extremely long ordeal, particularly for the divers themselves,” he said.
“I can’t help but feel sorry for them – the emotions they’re going through. And whilst it is a relief for them, I think the reality of what’s happened will probably hit them later on tonight and tomorrow as well.”
Ms Milowka believed cave diving was the essence of exploration and knew the risks, but said on her website the rewards were worth it.
- ABC/AAP
Ruth Spring
Ruth Spring, benannt nach Ruth Walker ist eine kleine sidemount Höhle in der Nähe von High Springs.
Cindy, Jean und Fred gaben mir die Möglichkeit sie zu betauchen. Leider waren die Sichtverhältnisse eher suboptimal und nach ein paar anfänglichen Schnellschüssen musste ich die Kamera wegklippen.
Irgendwie klappt die Sortierung nicht, das wird noch geändert
Some photos of Ruth (Walker) Spring, which is located close to High Springs. It´s a pretty sidemount cave, but the day we visited it, the viz was not the best.
(pics are out of order, but I´m working on that)
Mein Tauchbuch
- Inhalt
- über mich (about me)
- Bücher (books)
- DVD
- Höhlenkarten / cavemaps
- Fun
- Freunde
- In Memoriam
Besucher
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Cave Diving